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07/01/2005
Commonwealth Club
Commonwealth Club
Tonight I listened to the Commonwealth Club of Silicon valley. Mark Juergensmeyer was the speaker. He is the Director of Global and International Studies at University of California Santa Barbara. His talk was quite interesting and quite informative.
I won't go over the entire talk here, but if you go to: you can listen to his talk in entirety. Actually you may have to wait a few week, because they take a while to post the files.
But, there are three very important things that Mr. Juergensmeyer said that the American people should understand about the Middle East. The first is the simple viewpoint of the Iraqi insurgents from Fallujah.
Fallujah was NOT a stronghold of Saddam Hussein at any time. Fallujah was a Islamic religious center. It was like the United States Bible belt. It could even be considered the Koran belt of Iraq. So, when Saddam Hussein was overthrown by the US the people in Fallujah were NOT in any hurry to fight for Saddam Hussein. Being realistic people, the people of Fallujah decided to sit and wait and see how the US would transition into controlling the country. However, when looting broke out all over the country the Fallujahans became upset with the lack of ability of the US to safeguard the country. When the US set up control centers in Iraq they typically took over schools and set up shop. Since the Fallujahans had no beef with the US and the city seemed to be in order they were anxious to get back to doing everyday things. One of those things was sending the kids to school. But, since the school had been taken over by the US soldiers the people became upset that there wasn't any place for the kids to go to school. The women and children went to the school to protest the confiscation of the school. They began to protest, and more and more people showed up. The soldiers became nervous and 12 people were killed when the soldiers fired into the crowd. From this point on the people became enraged at the occupation of Iraq by the US.
The second point is an understanding of the Iraqi viewpoint of why the US is occupying Iraq.
It is common knowledge throughout the world including Iraq that the US CIA helped Saddam Hussein in the Iran Iraq war. There are pictures of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam during this time. The CIA helped Saddam and the common knowledge is that the CIA had continued to help the CIA up to the time of the first gulf war. Some even believe that the CIA helped Saddam up until the time of the second gulf war.
Of course this is what the average Iraqi believes, not what is actually true. We should know from our recent election that it is more important to know what people believe rather than what is actually true.
So, if the CIA is helping Saddam, why would the US invade Iraq? This is common obvious knowledge in Iraq too. The Iraqis believe that the US feared that the Muslim religious were going to rise up and have an Islamic revolution. So, the US wanted to put Saddam out of power because the US believed that Saddam was too weak to withstand an Islamic revolution. So, the Islamic religious believe that the US has replaced Saddam as the evil dictator and they have risen up to fight against the secular evils.
And, finally the third important thing to understand is why do people join this Fundamentalist Muslim movement. Mr. Juergensmeyer tells us a story that helps us understand why people join this movement. He said that he grew up in Southern Illinois. From time to time southern revivalist preachers came through town and put up a revival tent. He tells us that one time a preacher came out on stage in an army uniform and he told the crowd that he was a soldier for Christ and everyone of us were fighting in the war between good and evil. Mr. Juergensmeyer said that everyone that stayed in that tent was ready to fight for Christ by the time the revival was over. He said that the organizers of the Islamic movement use the same language, but they give guns and bombs to the people to carry out their missions. So, just think about how the Fundamentalist Christians in our country are brainwashed and you can understand how the Fundamentalist Muslims are likewise brainwashed.
Tonight I listened to the Commonwealth Club of Silicon valley. Mark Juergensmeyer was the speaker. He is the Director of Global and International Studies at University of California Santa Barbara. His talk was quite interesting and quite informative.
I won't go over the entire talk here, but if you go to: you can listen to his talk in entirety. Actually you may have to wait a few week, because they take a while to post the files.
But, there are three very important things that Mr. Juergensmeyer said that the American people should understand about the Middle East. The first is the simple viewpoint of the Iraqi insurgents from Fallujah.
Fallujah was NOT a stronghold of Saddam Hussein at any time. Fallujah was a Islamic religious center. It was like the United States Bible belt. It could even be considered the Koran belt of Iraq. So, when Saddam Hussein was overthrown by the US the people in Fallujah were NOT in any hurry to fight for Saddam Hussein. Being realistic people, the people of Fallujah decided to sit and wait and see how the US would transition into controlling the country. However, when looting broke out all over the country the Fallujahans became upset with the lack of ability of the US to safeguard the country. When the US set up control centers in Iraq they typically took over schools and set up shop. Since the Fallujahans had no beef with the US and the city seemed to be in order they were anxious to get back to doing everyday things. One of those things was sending the kids to school. But, since the school had been taken over by the US soldiers the people became upset that there wasn't any place for the kids to go to school. The women and children went to the school to protest the confiscation of the school. They began to protest, and more and more people showed up. The soldiers became nervous and 12 people were killed when the soldiers fired into the crowd. From this point on the people became enraged at the occupation of Iraq by the US.
The second point is an understanding of the Iraqi viewpoint of why the US is occupying Iraq.
It is common knowledge throughout the world including Iraq that the US CIA helped Saddam Hussein in the Iran Iraq war. There are pictures of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam during this time. The CIA helped Saddam and the common knowledge is that the CIA had continued to help the CIA up to the time of the first gulf war. Some even believe that the CIA helped Saddam up until the time of the second gulf war.
Of course this is what the average Iraqi believes, not what is actually true. We should know from our recent election that it is more important to know what people believe rather than what is actually true.
So, if the CIA is helping Saddam, why would the US invade Iraq? This is common obvious knowledge in Iraq too. The Iraqis believe that the US feared that the Muslim religious were going to rise up and have an Islamic revolution. So, the US wanted to put Saddam out of power because the US believed that Saddam was too weak to withstand an Islamic revolution. So, the Islamic religious believe that the US has replaced Saddam as the evil dictator and they have risen up to fight against the secular evils.
And, finally the third important thing to understand is why do people join this Fundamentalist Muslim movement. Mr. Juergensmeyer tells us a story that helps us understand why people join this movement. He said that he grew up in Southern Illinois. From time to time southern revivalist preachers came through town and put up a revival tent. He tells us that one time a preacher came out on stage in an army uniform and he told the crowd that he was a soldier for Christ and everyone of us were fighting in the war between good and evil. Mr. Juergensmeyer said that everyone that stayed in that tent was ready to fight for Christ by the time the revival was over. He said that the organizers of the Islamic movement use the same language, but they give guns and bombs to the people to carry out their missions. So, just think about how the Fundamentalist Christians in our country are brainwashed and you can understand how the Fundamentalist Muslims are likewise brainwashed.
23:30 Posted in Politics, Religion | Permalink | Comments (10) | Email this | Tags: Politics
Comments
I was very interested in your article and the summery of Mr. Juergensmeyers attempt to make sense of the atrocities and brutal slayings and subsequent hanging of headless American bodies from a bridge in Fallujahj. Rather than face the facts that these barbarians are living in the 17th century and are being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st you have attempted to rationalize why it is America's fault that they are barbarians. I, too, have been to the middle east a number of times. The Imams, Mullahs, and Sheiks maintain their power and status quo through religious oppression. As long as everybody has someone to look down upon, no one rebels. The Imams look down on the common man, the man looks down on the woman and children, and everybody hates the Jews. Stop trying justify these people. It always amazes me when i see American Christians being compared to Radical Muslims. Are you so afraid that someone is going to call you a pervert for what you are doing in your bedroom that you could compare a judgemental american calling you a sinner to a sword wielding beheading muslim. WAKE UP!!! America is the solution to this problem, not the cause. Democrats used to be against human rights violations, and for womans liberation. What Happened?
Posted by: tfreridge | 11/01/2005
tfreridge wrote:
"Rather than face the facts that these barbarians are living in the 17th century and are being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st you have attempted to rationalize why it is America's fault that they are barbarians."
There are several things that you are missing in your post. The first of which is that you are assuming that the Iraqis are all barbarians living in the 17th century. This is obviously wrong. Iraq was a secular country living under a dictator under Saddam Hussein. The Bush administration would like for all Americans to confuse these things. Saddam was a secular leader. The Terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center and Pentagon on 9/11 were religious zealots much like the religious right in this country.
If four protesting students were shot in Ohio, the country would be up in arms. (This happened, and they were!) So, why wouldn't we be surprised if an occupying force killed twelve protestors in Iraq? Obviously you have difficulty understanding other people's points of view.
Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 11/01/2005
Any country where prostitutes are beheaded in the streets to set an example, is home to barbarians. Why do you continue to act as if they are on the same moral ground as we are? Do you support beheading without due process? Do you support oppression of woman on a national/religious level? Up in arms is one thing, torture in the name of revenge is another. Or do you support that, too? Or aren't Iraquis educated enough to be held to a civilized standard?
Posted by: tfreridge | 11/01/2005
A side comment...
"If four protesting students were shot in Ohio, the country would be up in arms. (This happened, and they were!)"
Really? After the police riot in Chicago US public opinion was pro-police and anti-protester. The US is one of the most "law and order" nations in the industrialized world. What evidence is there of a country "up in arms" after the Kent State tragedy?
Posted by: Dan | 11/01/2005
Another side note...... concening my obvious lack of empathetic ability. I do have trouble understanding how a people could allow such cruelity to exist in the middle of their "secular society". I also have trouble empathizing with nazi's, kkker's, white supremists, and people who torture cats, dogs and other living things, including American soldiers, no matter how pissed off they are.
Posted by: tfreridge | 11/01/2005
tfreridge wrote: "Why do you continue to act as if they are on the same moral ground as we are?"
You make it sound as if everyone in Iraq believes in this type of law and order. Have you ever even spoken to anyone from the Middle East? You act as if these people are space aliens.
The US allowed the law and order of the country to fall apart after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. This lack of law and order happened after the Rodney King riots in LA in our country. The police quickly fixed the problem in LA, but the results we see in Iraq are the fault of the US not being able to secure the country by turning the Iraqi military away. Iraq is now being run by the gangs of theological criminals. We have the same problems in this country with the Mafia and other organized crime. In the US we control the problem. In Russia it took a firm hand to control their gangs after ten years.
But, you can not judge the US on the moral grounds of the Mafia or the fundamentalist Christians or any other evil we have in this country. Likewise you can't judge Iraq on the evils that they have. The lack of understanding of the US military and planning at the level of the White House is at fault for this turmoil.
Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 11/01/2005
Dan:
This is from a web site on the Kent State shootings:
"The government had purposely confused a portion of the American population who believed that our protests were unpatriotic. President Nixon especially tried to divide the voting public as pro-war/anti-war opponents. The majority of American public opinion had supported Nixon and his war in Southeast Asia until after the Kent State massacre and the national student strike of May, 1970. "
http://www.may4.org/faq2.htm
Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 11/01/2005
Thanks for the link.
The very next sentence after the one provided was.
President Nixon and Ohio Governor James Rhodes greatly miscalculated when they provoked an Ohio National Guard Troop G "death squad" to commit an inhumane massacre at Kent State University.
Wow! That strains credibility!
Again, any evidence for this? Say, a 10-point swing (-5 for the war, +5 for peace) for support of the war in Vietnam after Kent State? And that's still a far cry from a nation "up in arms"!
Posted by: Dan | 11/01/2005
With all this news about Dan Rather and CBS, it makes you wonder if Walter Cronkite had any influence over public opinion being swayed against the vietnam war. No embedded reporters, no blogs, just whatever uncle walter and the big 3 networks wanted you to know.
Posted by: tfreridge | 11/01/2005
Dan:
The best evidence is that Nixon actually began to work to end the war, instead of continuing his illegal war in Cambodia. Nixon cared about public opinion and his actions reflect that.
Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 11/01/2005
The comments are closed.