Dr. Forbush Thinks

Comments

Thank you for creating a new thread to continue the discussion.

"We join with Pope John Paul in the conviction that war is not "inevitable" and that "war is always a defeat for humanity."

I agree with the Catholic Bishops in America and the Pope.

Many courses could have been taken -- Iraq fully cooperating, perhaps less sabotage by the French, perhaps a more public build-up by the US, etc -- that might have averted war. War was not inevitable.

Likewise, war is a defeat for humanity. When we are maneuvered into a position where war is the last resort, we recognize that this is because of human weakness.

Now, where you going to provide a reference to your earlier claim that the Pope said the Iraq War was not a Just War?

Posted by: Dan tdaxp | 08/08/2005

I have proven the three points in this post. You agreed with the first three and this is the final piece!

Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 09/08/2005

Ah... so "asserted" means "proven" in your branch of science? ;)

If you can provide a reference, please do so. Otherwise, admit you made up the claim that the Pope condemend the Iraq War as unJust.

Posted by: Dan tdaxp | 09/08/2005

Pope said, "War cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions."

You wrote:

Yes, I agree that the Pope said those war about war. And they are true.

I also agree that the Catholic Church agrees with Just War Theory. It only makes sense, as it invented Just War Theory.

However, the statement " the Iraq War was not the last resort" is your opinion, not the Pope's.

To which I responded with the quote from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops which makes the following claim: "We join with Pope John Paul in the conviction that war is not "inevitable" and that "war is always a defeat for humanity." This is not a matter of ends, but means. Our bishops' conference continues to question the moral legitimacy of any preemptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq."

Normally when someone says that they join someone in saying something that means that the first person said what they claim. A normal person would concede to the truth here. A delusional person would continue to claim the falsehood. The Pope, through the words of these Bishops said that the War was not inevitable and those three facts establish that the Iraq War was unjust in the eyes those who believe in Just War theory. Hence, making the above statement should prove what the Pope said, even if it was only to a select crowd of Bishops. However, I still contend that other statements I have already provided make exactly the same statement. In addition, You have failed to provide any evidence of anyone suggesting that the Pope thought that the Iraq War was Just, or even that he claimed to be neutral on the issue.

Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 09/08/2005

"In addition, You have failed to provide any evidence of anyone suggesting that the Pope thought that the Iraq War was Just, or even that he claimed to be neutral on the issue."


From reading TDAXP's post I think you are missing the point. TDAXP never said the Pope thought the war was Just or was neutral one the issue. The Pope called a fast for peace and begged cooperation on all sides. TDAXP's point was that the Pope never said the war was "unjust". Being a minor part of the Church system I have to back him up that the Pope never stated the war was unjust.

Posted by: Catholicgauze | 09/08/2005

Catholicgauze,

So, you are saying that the Pope believed in the principles of Just War theory and pointed out that the Iraq War didn't meet the principles of being a Just War. But, since he didn't use the words Just War then somehow he didn't declare an opinion. Talk about Orwellian Logic...

Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 09/08/2005

No, not at all. The Pope had an opinion on the Iraq War. He was against it under the circumstances it was fought. The reason TDAXP and I object is because you wrote that the Pope had declared the war "unjust" The Catholic faith is a very bureaucratic faith and word choice is very important. The Pope (John Paul II) never said (at the very least in public or on record) that the war was "unjust". Having the Pope state the war is/was "unjust" would have major theological impacts on those who participate rather than having the Pope and Bishops declare the war not inevitable.

Posted by: Catholicgauze | 10/08/2005

So, simply put the Pope and the Cathjolic Church created the prerequisite for a "Just War."

If A then B.

And the prerequisite includes

If Not A then Not B.

And he declares Not A.

But you are arguing that he didn't declare B.

Sorry folks, logic follows even if the tongue refuses to utter the words.

Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 10/08/2005

"So, simply put the Pope and the Cathjolic Church created the prerequisite for a "Just War."

If A then B.

And the prerequisite includes

If Not A then Not B.

And he declares Not A."

Not at all. If you can find a reference to the Pope saying that the Iraq War doesn't meet the requiremnets of a Just War, please cite a reference! Please!

You are assuming that the Pope would support any Just War. Why?

Once you realize that the Pope will not automatically support a Just War, it's obvious how a war can be both Just and not sanctioned by the Pontiff.

Posted by: Dan | 10/08/2005

I have already given you very clear references and you don't accept them. That is your problem and not mine.

I agree with you that the Pope may not sanction a Just War. That is clear, but has he sanctioned an Unjust War?

Posted by: Dr. Forbush | 11/08/2005

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